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mushmouth

Easy STB Extraction from Mimosa Hostilis

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Growing Mushies

Nice tek. However freezing for 24 hours seems like overkill. It usually takes seconds to minutes to precipitate solids out of solution in a process called recrystalization. Generally the solution is boiled and then quickly dunked it in an ice bath to precipitate the solid; even if a colder environment is truly needed it should be just as cold after 2-3 hours as it is after 24 hours. Is there some other reason that you are keeping it in the freezer for a day? 

Also, for step (2h), you should be getting as close as you can to the 'dirty' aqueous layer, and then adding more solvent; this will allow you to extract the solvent layer again without repeating the process. There is no real reason to do the whole process of step (2) over again; I would say don't waste your time repeating step (2) more than once or twice maximum. Some of the active alkaloids that you are getting upon the 3rd or 4th extractions may just be what is left over in the naptha layer; very little should be left over in the aqueous layer. 

I have a few further recommendations on how you can smooth out the process. If you filter the solution before step (2h) using a lab grade filter, then you should be able to use a separatory funnel to get rid of the dirty layer altogether. Next you can wash the dirty layer with solvent and use the funnel again.  

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mushmouth

Thanks GM. Recrystallizing isn't the same as freeze precip. The way I understand other teks is that when you pull dirty crystals you can clean it up by recrystallizing it. Which means, you heat up some solvent, put the dirty crystals in it to dissolve, then cool it in an ice bath. The solution, left in the dirty solvent will separate and you can pull the clean solvent out. After that you still have to freeze precipitate the solvent.

The solvent is most definitely cold enough for the DMT to start falling out, but it takes a long time for it to do that. I would think if you've ever done an extraction you'd know it takes time for the crystals to form. Not trying to be a dick but maybe I just don't understand what you're saying here.

In 2h) it's very important not to get any solution in the solvent for this tek. There is no reason to get close to the solution because you will most certainly be doing it again because 50ml of Nap is not nearly enough to pull all of the DMT out of the solution. Any tek I've ever seen says to do it a few times. Can you show me one that doesn't?

Here are some crystals I got out of 3 jars of "spent" solution jars, meaning it was the 5th pull from these jars...

DSC02006.JPG

What do you mean by filter the solution?

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Growing Mushies
5 hours ago, mushmouth said:

Thanks GM. Recrystallizing isn't the same as freeze precip. The way I understand other teks is that when you pull dirty crystals you can clean it up by recrystallizing it. Which means, you heat up some solvent, put the dirty crystals in it to dissolve, then cool it in an ice bath. The solution, left in the dirty solvent will separate and you can pull the clean solvent out. After that you still have to freeze precipitate the solvent.

The solution is most definitely cold enough for the DMT to start falling out of the solvent but it takes a long time for it to do that. I would think if you've ever done an extraction you'd know it takes time for the crystals to form. Not trying to be a dick but maybe I just don't understand what you're saying here.

In 2h) it's very important not to get any solution in the solvent for this tek. There is no reason to get close to the solution because you will most certainly be doing it again because 50ml of Nap is not nearly enough to pull all of the DMT out of the solution. Any tek I've ever seen says to do it a few times. Can you show me one that doesn't?

Here are some crystals I got out of 3 jars of "spent" solution jars, meaning it was the 5th pull from these jars...

DSC02006.JPG

What do you mean by filter the solution?

Recrystallization is a form of precipitation. Recrystallization and precipitation in a cold environment operate based on the same basic principal, and if your naptha layer is clean then your crystals should be clean too (i.e. there shouldn't be a need for another crystallization unless you are using intravenously). It's true that it can sometimes take hours or days for precipitation to occur, but the only time it's taken more than an hour (for me) was when the lab instructor made a mistake in the lab manual (this was in an advanced organic synthesis course). I suppose there may be some additional variation from solvent to solvent and from solute to solute. The general idea is that below a certain temperature the solute loses solubility in the solvent. I think the reason why it is taking you so long to get crystallization is because your solvent needs to evaporate (i.e. your solute may be partially soluble in cold naptha). Try evaporating most of your solvent and then letting it sit in the freezer for ~3 hours; I bet you'll get crystallization, but let me know if I'm wrong. I'm curious as to why it is taking so long -- is it an inherent property of the solute, or is it too soluble in naptha?

What do I mean by filtering? I mean using a lab grade filter to clean any particulate matter or other solid impurities from the aqueous layer. Any plant material and other 'gunk' that you filter out can be extracted with naptha again separately. If you use a sep funnel to separate the two layers, but have solid impurities therein, then they can stick to the side of the funnel and gum up your non-polar layer. Ideally a sep funnel should be used, but your method of pipette separation is valid, if a little less efficient. 

No, no, that's not what I meant; you do have to repeat the extraction. Yes, you must wash the aqueous layer 1-2 additional times. This will allow you to extract more DMT from the aqueous layer and will dilute the naptha that you left in solution. Here's a video example of the process I am failing at describing:

 Cheers, happy isolating =)

Edit: I must also rebuke myself here a bit. In the lab we don't really work with plant material, so perhaps the procedure may vary slightly. Five extractions from 'spent' jars seems like an awful lot to me, but maybe there's something I'm missing. We must remain cognizant that plant material tends to 'trap' alkaloids, such that they become harder to extract. Thus it might not be that 50ml of naptha isn't enough to extract the DMT, but that it takes a long time for the DMT to get pulled out of the plant material. This could be tested by heating for a longer period of time to see if it increases extraction efficiency.

This is my only addendum, I stand by my other statements regarding crystallization and use of a sep funnel.

Edited by Growing Mushies
addendum, clarification
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Ohanzee Chatan

I like Cybes hybrid Tek. I want to take your tek @mushmouth and combine it with parts of his Tek like the acid bath before the sodium hydroxide is added. They are both great teks and I think they will benefit each other by combining parts of each. Thanks for the great write up mm! It's in my bookmarks now.

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mushmouth
1 minute ago, Ohanzee Chatan said:

I like Cybes hybrid Tek. I want to take your tek @mushmouth and combine it with parts of his Tek like the acid bath before the sodium hydroxide is added. They are both great teks and I think they will benefit each other by combining parts of each. Thanks for the great write up mm! It's in my bookmarks now.

That definitely sounds doable. It's been a while since I've looked at that tek. It's a hybrid of an AB and STB tek right?

This tek is a STB tek. Think I should put that in the title?

Thanks for the input OC.

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Ohanzee Chatan
27 minutes ago, mushmouth said:

That definitely sounds doable. It's been a while since I've looked at that tek. It's a hybrid of an AB and STB tek right?

This tek is a STB tek. Think I should put that in the title?

Thanks for the input OC.

It is an AB/STB hybrid. I like the acid and salt bath in his but I really like the coffee filter for the clean up pull in yours. The middle part of each Tek is almost the same. I think you should put STB in the title. I was very confused when I started down the DMT path and almost went off to make fumarate and try to smoke it. But through your help you got me pointed in the right direction to make freebase. I really appreciate all your help.

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mushmouth
7 minutes ago, Ohanzee Chatan said:

It is an AB/STB hybrid. I like the acid and salt bath in his but I really like the coffee filter for the clean up pull in yours. The middle part of each Tek is almost the same. I think you should put STB in the title. I was very confused when I started down the DMT path and almost went off to make fumarate and try to smoke it. But through your help you got me pointed in the right direction to make freebase. I really appreciate all your help.

Awesome! Thanks for the kind words OC. The deed is done, the title.

Yea man. When I first tried this tek I had no idea how easy it would be. A lot of teks tried to teach me basic chemistry. Probably a great thing for someone who's done extractions before but for me, at the time, it just got in the way.

If you try mixing the teks I'd love to hear about it. Good luck bro.

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Ohanzee Chatan
7 minutes ago, mushmouth said:

Awesome! Thanks for the kind words OC. The deed is done, the title.

Yea man. When I first tried this tek I had no idea how easy it would be. A lot of teks tried to teach me basic chemistry. Probably a great thing for someone who's done extractions before but for me, at the time, it just got in the way.

If you try mixing the teks I'd love to hear about it. Good luck bro.

I'll defiantly let you know. Just got a couple more things to get and waiting on the mhrb.

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Growing Mushies

I'm not saying that step (2) is recrystallization, but rather I'm comparing it to recrystallization. The freeze precipitation of step (2) is fundamentally no different than a recrystallization, which I myself have personally performed many many times on similar solutes.

My recommendation for a change to this step is to evaporate a good amount of the naptha and then place it in the freezer. I hypothesize that this would allow for faster crystallization. This isn't some major complication, it's very straightforward and it's chemically sound. Unless I am wrong -- and I might be -- this is a matter of solubility, in which case this suggestion should almost certainly work. For example, DXM takes a long time to precipitate, but that's only because it's too soluble in the solvent (i.e. water). Evaporating some of the solvent helps; I speak from experience.

6 hours ago, mushmouth said:

What you don't seem to understand, among other things, is that this is a tek for noobs, hence the word "easy" in the title. This tek will get you where you're trying to go in an easy, fast and clean way. When I was looking for a tek to try DMT I ran face first into people who seemed like they wanted the process to look difficult. This tek is a good way to get around the BS.

There's plenty that I don't understand, but there's also a lot that I do know about chemistry. There are many minor changes that could potentially improve the yield of this process and reduce the redundancy. I was completely floored when i read that you performed 5 extractions and still got what looks like ~100-200mg. Even scientists extracting morphine from poppy straw or psilocin from mushrooms don't do 5 extractions, and these alkaloids are even harder to remove. I feel like one or two simple changes would improve your yields. Try heating for longer or using more of your solvent if you get a chance. None of my suggestions change the chemical process itself; they barely change the tek at all actually. 

6 hours ago, Ohanzee Chatan said:

I like Cybes hybrid Tek. I want to take your tek @mushmouth and combine it with parts of his Tek like the acid bath before the sodium hydroxide is added. They are both great teks and I think they will benefit each other by combining parts of each. Thanks for the great write up mm! It's in my bookmarks now.

I agree with this notion. Extracting alkaloids from plant material is pretty difficult; it would be nice if we could find a way to do this without having to repeat the process 5 times. 

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Growing Mushies
1 hour ago, mushmouth said:

Have you seen Normans tek, Cybes tek or Erowids for the masses tek?

Have you ever extracted DMT?

Please clean up your vocabulary on this subject so that I can understand you better. There is no freeze precipitation in step 2 of my tek.

I already told you that it is faster to freeze precip the solvent than to evaporate 400ml of it. Or even 200ml of it.

Recrystallization is a combination of dissolving down CRYSTALS with warm solvent and then either freeze precipitating or evaporating the solvent. Step 2 in my tek is to get the DMT out of the solution and into the solvent in the first place.

I meant to say step 3, I'm referring to the crystallization. I just feel like there must be a faster way to precipitate the solute. I have not extracted DMT, but I've extracted similar organic compounds. I've never had to wait more than a few minutes for a solution to fully precipitate, it's unusual to me. 

Edit: It appears I was right about the solubility of DMT, it takes so long to precipitate because it is quite soluble in naptha. This tek is clearly performed by a student of chemistry:

https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/Vovin's_tek#Step_8-B:_Freeze_Seperation

1 hour ago, mushmouth said:

There is no excessive redundancy in this tek. If you've ever read a DMT extraction tek I would think you would know that.

1g of DMT from 100g of RB is a very good yield. There is no way to get 2g of DMT from 100g of RB. Did you know that?

You mistake me; I don't mean to say that your overall yield is bad -- quite to the contrary -- your yield amazed me. I just think that the yield for each individual extraction can be improved, not the overall yield. Five extractions just seems like a lot to me; I've never had to perform this many extractions, and I've synthesized all kinds of nonsense. My criticisms are in regards to the time it takes and the repetition; the chemistry of your tek is sound.

1 hour ago, mushmouth said:

Do you have anything to add to or any questions about THIS tek?

You act as if chemistry is this static construct. I'm just throwing ideas out there for you to experiment with. Any tek can be modified or improved by trying new things.

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mushmouth
3 minutes ago, Growing Mushies said:

I meant to say step 3, I'm referring to the crystallization. I just feel like there must be a faster way to precipitate the solute. I have not extracted DMT, but I've extracted similar organic compounds. I've never had to wait more than a few minutes for a solution to fully precipitate, it's unusual to me. 

You don't freeze precip the solution in a DMT ex. tek. You freeze precip the DMT out of the solvent.

Please tell me how to form crystals of DMT, like I've showed you 2 times already, in 3hr. I would love to know. But for you to keep going on and on that it's unheard of to take a good part of 24hr is, at this point, a little frustrating.

DSC01961.JPG

 

4 minutes ago, Growing Mushies said:

You mistake me; I don't mean to say that your overall yield is bad -- quite to the contrary -- your yield amazed me. I just think that the yield for each individual extraction can be improved, not the overall yield. Five extractions just seems like a lot to me; I've never had to perform this many extractions, and I've synthesized all kinds of nonsense. My criticisms are in regards to the time it takes and the repetition; the chemistry of your tek is sound.

This tek calls for 4 pulls. Again this is completely on par to every STB tek I've ever seen. The crystals I showed you from a 6th pull was from 3 solution jars from when I first started extracting. I got better at it I admit. But I got better at it by doing it like I do it in this tek.

DSC02006.JPG

 

46 minutes ago, Growing Mushies said:

You act as if chemistry is this static construct. I'm just throwing ideas out there for you to experiment with. Any tek can be modified or improved by trying new things.

Absolutely. But like I said, the suggestions you've made so far change things in a drastic way and will prove costly and complicate things. I can't help feeling that you're suggesting to use another tek. If that's what you're saying, thanks for stopping by to say so.

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Growing Mushies
17 minutes ago, mushmouth said:

You don't freeze precip the solution in a DMT ex. tek. You freeze precip the DMT out of the solvent.

Yeah, I know. What I wrote was a little ambiguous. 

17 minutes ago, mushmouth said:

Please tell me how to form crystals of DMT, like I've showed you 2 times already, in 3hr. I would love to know. But for you to keep going on and on that it's unheard of to take a good part of 24hr is, at this point, a little frustrating.

I never said it's unheard of, simply that I've never personally seen it. I came up with a hypothesis as to why it takes so long to precipitate, and I provided a link to back up my (obviously correct) claim that DMT is partially soluble even in cold naptha. You can disregard my comments on this topic if you don't mind waiting 24 hours, but personally I'm a bit too antsy for that.

I'd also warn people that if they add too much excess naptha, then they won't get much precipitation for days, maybe weeks. I'll be back here in a year or so to (hopefully) show you that your tek can be modified slightly to result in faster crystallization.

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Growing Mushies
4 minutes ago, mushmouth said:

I call bullshit again. How much Naphtha is excessive? As long as there is DMT in the Naphtha and the Naphtha is cold enough the DMT will precipitate out of it.

Not according to Vovin: " The only big issue here is that you need to use as little naptha as possible during our 7th step. When crystallizing there needs to be a degree of saturation in the solvent or supersaturation. If there is more solvent than product not all the DMT will fall out. So the key is to use as little solvent as possible 100ml or less per extract, maybe the last extract use 50ml. So during step 7 make sure your chemicals are very warm this will increase their ability to absorb DMT. Cold solvent won't absorb as much as warm solvent" [emphasis mine]

https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/Vovin's_tek#Step_8-B:_Freeze_Seperation   

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mushmouth
12 minutes ago, Growing Mushies said:

Not according to Vovin: " The only big issue here is that you need to use as little naptha as possible during our 7th step. When crystallizing there needs to be a degree of saturation in the solvent or supersaturation. If there is more solvent than product not all the DMT will fall out. So the key is to use as little solvent as possible 100ml or less per extract, maybe the last extract use 50ml. So during step 7 make sure your chemicals are very warm this will increase their ability to absorb DMT. Cold solvent won't absorb as much as warm solvent" [emphasis mine]

https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/Vovin's_tek#Step_8-B:_Freeze_Seperation   

Isn't it funny how many things in that tek agree with what I've been trying to tell you all day? You should stick to that tek bro. Enjoy yourself.

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Growing Mushies

I feel like we're talking past each other and arguing over semantics. I'd prefer your tek, it's simpler. 

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thadragonmaster

Nice tek!!

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Growing Mushies
6 hours ago, mushmouth said:

Maybe you should read this thread over again and find out why I'm aggravated with you.

I'm sorry for giving you such a hard time. I just found the chemical justification for why so many extractions are needed, and why freeze crystallization takes so long. It was in Erowid all along and I didn't even notice. =/

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mushmouth

Sweet.

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